BTK Podcast_Episode 4

Hello everyone and welcome to the fourth episode of the Behind the Knife Surgical Education podcast series brought to you by the Collaboration of Surgical Education Fellows or COSEF. We hope you enjoyed our last episode where we discussed our perspectives on the recent changes to the ab site scoring system.

And we're excited to bring you more interesting content about surgical education today. I'm Josh Rochelle. I'm a general surgery resident at Brigham and Women's Hospital, and I'm in my academic development time away from the hospital. I'm completing an American College of Surgeons Accredited Education Institute Surgical Simulation and Education Research Fellowship at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, Texas.

My research interest lies in applying the Duolingo method for app based teaching and learning to surgical education. And today I'm joined by the great doctors Maya Hunt and Darian Hoagland as my co hosts. Welcome guys and thanks for being on the show today. Hey everybody. I'm Maya Hunt. I'm a general surgery resident at Indiana University and currently in my second year.

Second year of surgical education fellowship. I'm also getting an M-H-P-E-A Master's in Health Professions Education at the

University of Illinois Chicago. My research has mainly been focused around surgical culture and the learning environment, and I'm particularly interested in leadership and power dynamics within surgical culture.

And a big welcome to you two. Darien. Thanks for being on the show. Hello, I'm Darion Hogan. I'm a general surgery resident at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Currently spending my professional development time doing surgical education research. I was last year, a simulation fellow at Leahy hospital.

And I'm this year simulation fellow here at BIDMC. My academic interests are in motivation and empowerment of residents in their own education, resident and faculty development as educators and in video based assessment. And you might be wondering what the heck is COSEF. Well, we're a multi institutional organization of surgical education research fellows working together to foster peer mentorship.

Networking and scholarly collaboration. We meet every week to discuss ongoing research efforts by individuals or by smaller groups within csosa. We've recently become a formal part of the Association for Surgical Education as well. So if you're a surgical education fellow or a surgery resident

interested in education and you're interested in joining us in csf, email us at csaf connect@gmail.com.

That's C-O-S-E-S connect@gmail.com. You can also learn more about us on our new website, cef.org. Is that a phone ringing? Are we getting a phone call right now? Caller, can you tell us your name and why are you calling us? Hi Kosef, my name is Rachel Caldfell and I'm a fourth year medical student at Washington University in St.

Louis and applying for the general surgery match this year. I've heard a lot about the need to prioritize what's important to me when choosing a program. But I'm also sure there are things that I don't even know that I should be including in that list of priorities. How do I find out what I don't know?

Hey, Rachel. Thanks so much for calling in and asking. This is a really great question. Luckily, we do have some tools to help you with this that we are going to be discussing today. In this episode, we'll be focusing on what is on the mind of every fourth year medical student currently, navigating the Maine residency match.

BTK has a Dominate the Match series that gets into the nitty gritty of important

aspects such as personal statements, letters of recommendation, signaling, and more, which we recommend you check out for more details on those. However, what you're getting at, Rachel, with your question is the hidden curriculum of the match.

Two of our COSEF members have recently published two articles on this topic, which, by the way, we will link in the show notes of this episode, and we are thrilled to have the first authors of these articles, Drs. John Woodward and Arianna Nasse here with us for a journal club discussion. Welcome. Thank you for that introduction.

My name is John Woodward. I'm a general surgery resident at the University at Buffalo in upstate New York. I completed two clinical years of residency and I'm currently in my second year of professional development time. I'm interested in both pediatric surgery and surgical education, and I work with the pediatric surgery research group in Buffalo.

While working towards my master's of health professions education, I am also the chair of research for COSOF. I was the primary author for Find Your Perfect Match for Surgical Residency. six steps to building your brands which was published in the Annals of Surgery Open. Great.

Thanks for joining us, John.

It's great to have you here as well, Dr. Nassa. Hi, everyone. My name is Ariana Nassa and I'm a general surgery resident at Washington University in St. Louis. I'm currently in my second year of professional development time and I'm splitting my time fairly evenly between conducting population based breast and genetics research, clinical outcomes, breast research, and surgical and medical education research.

My educational interests are rooted in residency recruitment and wellness, surgery culture, and training in student belonging. Last year, I obtained my Master's of Population Health Sciences through WashU and joined COSEP. I was the first author for one of the pieces we'll be discussing today, Bolster Out the Noise, How to Narrow Your Search for the Perfect Match by the Collaboration of Surgical Education Fellows, published in Journal of Surgical Education last month.

All right. So, John and Ariana, thank you for joining us. So clearly, there's a need for this type of information. I know when I look back at my match process, I can identify a few things that I did right, but I remember a lot more things that just make me cringe. So much is based on hearsay and just gathering advice from as many people as you can.

Oh my gosh, do you

remember those Reddit spreadsheets? I would visit them every day trying to get some insight into what other people were doing so that I wouldn't be behind for some reason for something that I didn't even know about. Okay, I found them really stressful and also not very helpful. It was a lot of people just talking about themselves.

Yeah, exactly. So let's dive into it. Ariana and John, can you tell us a little bit more about your personal math processes and what inspired you to write about these topics? Absolutely. When I went through my fourth year of medical school and was applying into general surgery, it felt like I kept making mistakes at times.

Every stage along the way, even though I had great surgical advisors helping me along that process. Two of the many examples of my mistakes include missing an opportunity for a letter of recommendation from a rotation and missing out on interview opportunities due to poor planning. On an early sub I at the start of the pandemic, there were no elective cases and I was on a trauma rotation with a different attending surgeon every week.

I loved that rotation as a learning experience. I got to

know the residents incredibly well, work closely with them and see some amazing things. It also helped cement that general surgery was the right place for me. However, I forgot to prioritize time with any specific attending in clinic, on rounds or in the operating room.

So at the end of the rotation, while I had great relationships with the residents and the APPs, none of the attendings felt like they knew me really well, which was A really eye opening experience for me. I thought all of my hard work would have been seen and recognized, but since I didn't think about setting myself up for a great letter of recommendation at the start of that rotation, and only about working hard and seeing as much as I could, I missed out on obtaining a strong letter from that rotation, which was devastating at the time.

The other mistake. Which seems simple in hindsight, but you don't know what you don't know, was with scheduling interviews. As interview offers start to come out, you'll find many residencies interview on the exact same days. And if you don't seek out that information and plan accordingly before starting to schedule your own interviews, you could run into easily avoidable scheduling conflicts.

At the start of

the interview season, I think it was around my fourth interview offer, that I had already started to run into these conflicts and had to reject interviews that I would have been really excited to do. Conflicts are inevitable, but with a little bit of pre planning, I could have easily scheduled more of them with fewer conflicts.

So I guess to summarize, I think these both highlight that there is so much involved with a residency application and that it's really easy to lose sight of the big picture. So with my piece, I really wanted to create a resource that took the 10, 000 foot view and hopefully illuminate the path a little better for current medical students to have a smoother process in navigating their application and successfully building their brands to apply to surgery.

for listening. Yes, John, transparency is so important in this process. And how about you, Ariana? Did you encounter similar types of issues when navigating the match? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having us both here on the podcast and discuss our perspective pieces. And thanks to everyone who's co hosting the podcast or being involved in our pieces too.

For me, a major source of inspiration came from struggling throughout my own match process to find out what really mattered when choosing a program.

Depending on who you talk to, you're encouraged to prioritize a variety of things. Most often, I think I was encouraged to consider the quality of surgical training, the breadth of cases, the learning environment, and whether the location was desirable to me.

I even found myself getting caught up in rankings, fellowship matches, etc. Now, I often reflect on what I would have told my MS4 self going through the process to think about. What are the things that bring me joy and fullness in my life to St. Louis? For me, it's by and large the people, my co residents, my attendings who care about me as a person and treat me with respect and dignity throughout the learning process.

And these are all things that are really hard to get a sense of in interviews, especially the virtual one that we all went through. I also value and love the ease in which I transport to and from work, how easy it is for me to take a walk and get some fresh air in nature, the affordable cost of living, And the easing community airport with direct flights home to see family and the fact that luckily some of my favorite people from medical school matched also within driving distance.

I have a support network outside of my residency family. I think I was fairly naive as an M. S. foreign considering how much my life could change over the course

of the seven years of residency and what needs and wants I would have. Looking back, I thought I would get married and start a family, but I didn't have the ability to think so far in the future to anticipate what a program would need to provide me to make that possible.

I couple's match with my now husband, and we're both general surgery residents together at Wash U. And as an MS4, I really wasn't thinking about things like importance of child care accessibility and institutional level support.

I feel really lucky that a lot of these practical aspects that I didn't intentionally seek or were honestly overlooked worked themselves out, but I would have been truly devastated had they not. And I was at a program that didn't support me or have resident parents that I could look up to. Some medical students are lucky enough to have advisors or be close enough to general surgery residents who can point them towards some of these really hard to grasp aspects of pregnancy.

Programs such as community culture, belonging and structure and policies that will really affect your life, but honestly, not everyone does. Yeah, I mean, I was lucky enough to have a fourth year medical student at the time when I was a third year pull me aside and tell me the

things that I needed to do to make sure that I would be successful for the match.

I don't know where I would be if it wasn't for that person's help. Yeah, absolutely. Residency in the match process is such a trying and unique time in which you lose a lot of your agency of choice. I think that myself and all my collaborators wanted to make sure that we brought some transparency to that aspect of the match process and really spoke to MS4s to say, Hey, here's what matters to us.

This does not have to be what matters to you and it'll be really hard to find a program that ticks off every single box. But let us throw some ideas at you so you can get an idea of what affects our day to day life as surgery residents. We're working very hard to achieve our goals and dreams of being surgeons and we really want to help you filter out all the noise in the match process.

Thank you both so much for sharing your own experiences and inspiration for these pieces. I really would have loved to have something like this available when I was going through the process. And you know, John, something you mentioned was how easy it is to get caught up in all of the details of the match and lose sight of one's bigger goals at the end of this, so called, you know,

focusing on a few trees and forgetting about the forest.

How can students applying in the match stay ahead of this and be an active participant in their own process? Maya, that is a phenomenal question, and I want to highlight the language you use, because it is too important not to highlight. How can a student be an active participant in this process? At many times in my journey, I fell into the trap of not thinking ahead and losing sight of that.

big picture. I thought hard work would carry me through. And while hard work is required, it is important to implement it effectively, which requires knowing the steps of applying and what is important within an application. As a student, you cannot expect others to do all of the legwork for you. You have to set yourself up for success because no one's going to do a better job for you than you.

Okay, John. So then what's the first step in really figuring out what you know and don't know? I would recommend start by learning the rough timeline of the application events. What is required in an application and the hard due dates like the ERAS and match rank submission

dates and plan accordingly.

Set specific and actual goals throughout the process to help you optimize your efforts and results. To give just one example for another part of the application, the interview day. If you just focus on selling yourself to the program and interviews. And forget that an interview is also your chance to ask questions and learn about a program, then the next step of creating your rank list is going to be significantly harder than it needs to be.

To be an active participant means before interviewing, you have to think about and reflect on what is important to you in a training program. Seek out those answers before the interview on the program's website and come prepared with the questions you couldn't easily get answers to. This active process can be applied to each stage of the application and the earlier you start to plan, the better.

This doesn't mean that there won't be hiccups and challenges to adapt to and overcome along the way, but as an active participant who has thought about how to set yourself up for success, the whole process will be easier. I think that's a great way to frame your mindset about the match. But even if you play an active role in the match process, there

are often important things to consider that aren't publicly advertised by residency programs.

Arianna, you bring up a lot of aspects of programs that aren't necessarily listed on their websites. Where do you recommend you actually go to find this information, and how do you do it? Yeah, that's an excellent question, Josh, and this is actually something we at length discussed within our group as we were drafting this manuscript.

We put together a pretty comprehensive, but likely not all encompassing, list of some questions in our paper. We separated this out by high yield questions and those that focused on each of the major aspects of programs from our point of view, learning environment, professional development, flexibility and training, policies, resident wellness, hospital relationships, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, and out of hospital considerations.

We encourage applicants to be tactful in elucidating the answers to these questions. You could choose to ask them directly to programs, and this will often be the most informative. You can ask at the pre interview social, in their interview setting either to residents, faculty, or both in any downtime that you have on your interview day, or

post interview as you start to gather your thoughts and figure out your priorities.

For me, the interview season felt relatively fast paced, and sometimes it was difficult to really self reflect well during and immediately after each interview. It wasn't until my interviews had all wrapped up, and I reviewed all my notes, did I realize I had some gaps in my understanding of some programs.

Then, I spoke one on one over the phone with some residents from my top five programs to really get these answers. You can also try to get as many of these answers that you can through whatever information the program's providing to you, whether that be through social media, websites, or program videos.

Some of these questions may seem really hard to ask directly, or it may not feel like the program will respond well to you asking them one or many of these questions. Use your best judgment. Ultimately, it is your interview experience. I would say, in my point of view, and I'm just one person, that if a program is giving you some flack for asking these questions or hesitates in answering these questions, or gives you what feels like a vague or pre canned response.

I'd dive deeper and really consider why this is. A lot of interviewing is reading in between the lines of what a program is telling you.

Yeah, those are some excellent points. And as you pointed out, it's a lot of information. So for medical students that are combing through so much information, what do you both think is the biggest takeaway from your pieces?

Yeah, I think our piece highlights that there are so many aspects of programs that come together to create your residency experience. I'd say that I would hope medical students read the piece and it's able to spark some self reflection about things that matter to them and that they might want to find from programs.

Maybe our piece helped you pause and think about what kinds of learning environments you thrive in, how much flexibility and training even matters to you, or what community engagement and integration opportunities is. exist at your possible future institution. We don't expect that every aspect of a program to be a top priority for everyone, but we encourage you to really use the pre, during, and post interview season to consider what makes you, you, and what a program should offer you to help you feel the most like yourself throughout the process.

You may be willing to make different sacrifices or compromises than your friend or roommate, and that's totally okay. The match process is unique to you. Ariana, those are some

amazing points. For the perfect match piece, I would say the big takeaway is the importance of being an active participant in building your application.

No one's going to come out of the shadows and say, I've been observing you. Here's a fantastic letter of recommendation and a list of programs I know are a perfect match for you. Taking that active approach will allow you to see as each opportunity along the way to find your perfect match at the end of the process.

You know, John and Ariana, I noticed that a number of the authors from the two pieces hail from academic residency programs. Do you think that the advice you give from the papers holds true for people who are applying to community or rural residency programs? Absolutely. Probably the only less applicable section would be our emphasis on professional development time from the lens of many of us taking dedicated time away from our training to complete this.

However, professional development is an important opportunity at every residency program and the structure residency provides you to do this. I would say it's arguably more important if it's not ingrained in the program structure and expected or allowed to step away from training to complete this.

Many of

our authors have actually experienced interviewing at all kinds of residency programs. And at the end of the day, I think we all believe the core tenets of the paper reign true no matter what kind of program you're applying to. Every program has a culture that you must discern. And regardless of what residency program you go to, you'll be a learner in a very vulnerable environment, working hard as residents to become a surgeon.

Oh, it looks like we have actually another caller on the line. Caller, can you tell us your name and what question do you have for us? Hi, everyone. I'm Keith McKeach, a fourth year medical student at Indiana University. My question for you all is, when you reflect back on the process, what's something you may have cared too much or maybe even too little about?

Keith, this is a fantastic question, and I think gets to the heart of both of our pieces and reflecting on what priorities are important to you. And when I look back and reflecting on my own priorities, they have definitely changed over time, as they do for most of us. One thing I cared Too little about that.

I completely changed. My mind on was rotating at multiple different locations. I originally considered that as a negative of programs when I was

applying and I matched to Buffalo where we rotate between six different hospitals with four different EMRs. And I love it. It is annoying for the first week when you're on a new service at a new place.

But you quickly learn the location in the EMR, no longer a problem. Then you get to experience and learn from so many different surgeons, which gives you great variety of experiences and tools for your future tool belt on how to approach any individual surgery. And I get to experience so many different hospital systems and settings.

It's allowing me to already think ahead about what I like and don't like, and we'll be looking for in a hospital system when I eventually become an attending five, six, nine years down the line. We'll see. I know that the variety is preparing me incredibly well for my future and would be a strong positive for a program if I were reapplying to general surgery residency today.

Something I cared too little about was program support in designing professional development time. I always thought that I would take two years off for research, and as I was going through the match and interviewing at programs, I looked for

programs that allowed for at least two years away from clinical time, but it was just a check point.

Box. Yes or no. I didn't think about the additional support provided in designing and supporting these years as my program got to know me, my interest in pediatric surgery, along with my interest in resident and medical student education. They worked with me over many months and meetings. Learning about my career goals and eventually offered to pay me to pursue a master's of education while pursuing pediatric surgery research.

I didn't even know programs offered that level of financial support during professional development time and would pay for a resident to get an advanced degree. So I definitely would have asked if I were at the interviewing stage now, how does this program support residents during their professional development time?

Does this program support residents pursuing advanced degrees like an MBA, MPH, PhD, or master's of education? What does that support look like? And the answer to those questions would have a large impact on my ranking of programs now. But disclaimer, I will say what's important to me is not necessarily what's going to be important to

you.

And thinking specifically about what's important to you is the crucial part going forward. Yeah, totally echo that. I knew I wanted to pursue my degree during my professional development time. Ideally, that was completely funded by my programs. That was something I explicitly asked programs and that helped narrow down my list significantly.

Totally. I do think it is hard though to know exactly what opportunities you want to take part in as an MS4 because even if you have an idea, that can totally change throughout your residency experience as you grow, learn, and are exposed to surgery. I think something I prioritize a lot that actually has really affected my experience as a resident are opportunities to interface with program and institutional leadership and provide feedback.

I asked a lot of questions about how often residents met with their program director, whether or not they were provided formal and or anonymous opportunities to provide feedback or suggestions. However, I think the piece I didn't ask about, which is so important and something we really tried to highlight in our piece, is not only how listened to you feel, but then how does your program actually respond to your feedback?

Is there transparency in how decisions are made? Even if no

change is actually occurring from your feedback or suggestions, do you know why it can't happen or what progress is being made to hopefully move the needle for the future? Sure, airing your grievances and venting is therapeutic, but like I alluded to before, you lose a lot of agency in your own experience as a resident, and I think it's really helpful to be somewhere that treats you as much like an adult as they can within the confines of the system that is residency.

Something I prioritized too little was everything in the policy section. I think I naively assumed, and I've talked to a lot of you all about this, that residents were treated fairly at all institutions. What B. E. A. R. means to me and what it means to you may be totally different, but I think I would encourage applicants to ask more directly about leave policies, staff benefits like 401k matching, whether or not your program both financially and administratively supports required things such as licensing, step three, and so on.

loops, education funds, and beyond knowing what those policies are as laid out on the program website, I encourage you to really question residents about their experiences accessing and utilizing these resources. For example, perhaps lactation rooms are provided to residents, but there's only one in the whole

hospital and it's located like a mile away from the O.

R. and has no computers, so you can't put in orders. I was really heavily focused on asking programs about meal cards. And funny enough, now as a resident, my program offers a copious amount of meal cards. And I bring my lunch every day because cooking is really fun and enjoyable to me. One of the key aspects of that section that we highlighted in our papers question table is resident coverage.

We have what we call Jeopardy call or flex coverage at my program. And I think that's really changed the game for how us as co residents are able to request time off to go to appointments, important family events, conferences, and it's creates a narrative where rather than feeling guilty for asking for accommodations because you feel like you're putting more work on other co residents or your team when you leave, you actually are empowered to do so because you know that the team will still have the support they need while you accomplish what you need to do as a person.

Yeah, I totally agree with that, Arianna. Life still happens during residency. Keith, for me, one thing I personally prioritized too little was thinking about how geographically close to my support system I wanted to be. So, like everyone else has said, this really comes

down to knowing what's personally most important to you.

It was a bit more complicated than normal because I started in the midst of COVID, but I had initially wanted to be closer to where my friends and family live to make it easier to get to the big and small events. So don't get me wrong, I ended up at a program I'm happy at. I still make it to all the important things, but it's something that I originally had pretty high on my priority list, and I let slip down throughout the interview season as I was trying to balance all of that.

all of the other aspects that we talked about. But geography is a non modifiable factor, and the things that I prioritized too much were then the quote unquote modifiable factors. So, like other people have mentioned, whether the program uses night flow or call shifts, going to outside rotation, which years you rotate on which service.

All of those things and your personal opinions about them can change. Absolutely. And Keith, this is a great question. And I'm really loving these answers, y'all. So like John, I also personally care too much about the number of hospital sites or the use of different EMRs. I really wanted to be somewhere with only one to two sites or EMRs.

But at

IU, we regularly rotate through like seven sites and use three different EMRs. And, well, yes, it's initially annoying to onboard and learn to navigate multiple EMRs or hospital preferences as an intern. It quickly becomes normal, and it actually teaches you to be very adaptable as a resident. So I know when I go to fellowship or move on to a faculty position, I'm going to be able to adapt to a new system or new EMR since I've had to learn how to do it multiple times already.

And that's much harder to learn, that flexibility, once you've already gone through training. As for caring too little, I would also echo Ariana's comments about the ability to be heard without investigating how a program follows up on that feedback. I really wanted to be somewhere that would use resident input, but at the time when I was applying, I really didn't think about asking how programs I was lucky to end up at a place that is as transparent as possible and talks to us about how grievances have been addressed or why things can't be changed.

I personally would have had a much harder time at a program that

seemingly listened to us, but then never followed up what they did with the information. I would have a hard time knowing if they actually cared or listened to what we were saying, or if it was more just lip service to try to appease us and get us to go away.

So, when you're on this journey, I would encourage you to ask residents about their experience in that aspect as well. But overall, it's really quite amazing to see how different your perspective changes on what's important when you're a medical student versus a resident which is exactly why we're talking about these things.

Oh looks like we have another call on the line. Caller, can you tell us your name and what question do you have for us? Hi again everybody. It's Rachel. Thank you all so much for all of this. It's been super helpful and insightful, but I gotta be honest at this point, like looking at the Eres and like everything this fall, whenever anybody asks me about the match right now, I say I feel nauseous.

about it because that's as concise as I can put the feelings. Did you guys experience this and how did you manage all of those like anxieties and everything that just surround all aspects of the match

throughout the process? Rachel, great question. It's a real question. And for us, I think it's very tempting to want to control the entire process.

After all, I think one of the reasons that we all go into surgery is because of our type A personalities that shape us to want to make sure that things are done the way that we want them done when we want them done. But unfortunately, Newsflash, you can't control the process. So you can only do as much as you can so that you can sleep soundly at night.

It's also easy to perpetually be thinking about the future. So try to distract yourself and stay in the moment by spending time with your friends and family and pursuing your personal interests. You've already worked so hard to get here and you really won't have this much free time again once you start your residency training.

Thanks for asking this, Rachel, and for your vulnerability and sharing that. And Josh, you are very right about trying to control things. You're not alone, Rachel, in this feeling. I find that most students that I work with or mentor are highly anxious about the process. I know that I was personally, and it can be really tricky to discuss this with

peers.

A lot of people can be very private about the process that they're going through based on how competitive the match is. When I was going through it, I had two phrases that they are a little contrived and kind of silly. You might see them on some like home good signs, but they actually really helped me to ride the waves of the match process and release some of that temptation to control things.

So the first was everything is all right in the end. If it's not all right, it's not the end. And that really helped remind me that I can't know how things are going to turn out. But I will be okay at the end of all of it. If you're in a moment where you're feeling overwhelmed, think about that.

Everything's all right in the end, and it's not all right, it's not the end. And for the second one, even though I'm really not spiritual, the serenity prayer that they use in AA was actually very helpful to me during this time, and I recommend it to all of my mentees. So grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

When I was going through at the very beginning, a few weeks into after interviews came out, I was sitting at three

interviews when the rest of my classmates had like 15 or more. So I was nervous, but I knew I still had the power to change things. I just needed a little courage. So I took it upon myself to write letters of interest to like half of my programs that I applied to.

And I ended up after, you know, several months with 10 interviews. Once my rank list was submitted, I accepted that I had done everything in my power that I could to change the outcome. And spending a month anxious over the results is not going to change the results of my match. It would just make me feel bad for a month.

So I decided to enjoy my time as much as I could until the match results came out, which was Absolutely a better use of my time and everybody else was just upset for a month So feel free to use these phrases if they resonate with you. Yeah. Well, thank you all for sharing those honest stories and insights It's really easy to focus on some of the wrong or less important aspects while interviewing and ranking But like we've all said which ones those are is a personal decision but one thing I know

that all of us on here agree on is that at the Any accredited program, you will get the training that you need to be a competent surgeon.

So this process truly is about finding which ones will provide you with the additional things that you care about. Yes, totally agree with that sentiment. Same. Agree. And I truly think that there's so much more we can talk about as it relates to the match. But for the sake of creating a contained podcast, I think we will wrap up the discussion there.

If you want to learn more about how to navigate the match, check out the Dominate the Match series from BTK. And we'd like to extend our sincere thanks to our author guests, Dr. Arianna Nasset and Dr. John Woodward, as well as our medical student callers, Keith and Rachel. Again, if you're interested in reading these two perspective pieces, they'll be linked in the show notes of this episode.

Thank you everyone for listening to the Behind the Knife podcast today. And as always, go forth and dominate the day!